Curse

Sab · Nov 22, 2007, 02:11 AM // 02:11

I don't think anyone's saying that you shouldn't have fun playing a Mesmer, or at least, I don't think that was their intent. They're saying that Mesmers aren't an effective PvE profession. If you have a decent knowledge of game mechanics, I'm sure you'll come to the same conclusion.

If you accept that but still enjoy playing on your Mesmer, good for you. Just don't be blinded by the love of your own profession to think that Mesmers are actually strong in PvE.

Rayne Nightfyre · Nov 22, 2007, 02:11 AM // 02:11

The main reason is Mesmers are few and far between is that most don't have the patience to learn how effective they really can be. But of course, much depends on how the person behind the character controls it. Much of the damage a Mesmer does usually goes unnoticed, which results in many thinking they're useless. They're designed to be more deceptive than other classes. Mesmer is a very fun class to play if you truly give it a shot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale

Is it a technically weak class, for sure(so are they all in certain situations). But the ability, creativity and sheer bloodymindness of the people who enjoy playing it more than make up for it. The real issue is, and here's why you may not see many mesmers these days is fewer people are bloodyminded enough to stick with the stigmas, push through the bias and invoke the creativity and make it work.

Exactly! You nailed it.

Also, many of their skills are directed toward a single enemy, not AoE. Which is yet another reason many prefer not to play them. That can be very useful if facing tough bosses or other annoying enemies. At the least, they can act as a buffer to keep tough enemies at bay.

Lady Raenef · Nov 22, 2007, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

I saw a Mesma last week. His secondary was Worriar.

That brought a smile to my face.

Mesmers are PvP, not PvE. Sort of like, in my opinion, Rangers are useless unless they have Barrage. Then they can be a little more useful. And Assassins have the tendancy to go Tank as if they're just emo Warriors. There's a lot more Mesmers in PvP.

Redfeather1975 · Nov 22, 2007, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Full Metal X

Sounds dumb to me tbh.

Just because your different doesn't mean your useful.

It would be dumb if it were real. I wouldn't tie my hand behind my back in a real fight just for the thrill of winning with a handicap.
In a game however it's just about having fun for most people. And for some people having fun means turning up the difficulty slider to see how far you can go.

garethporlest18 · Nov 22, 2007, 05:47 AM // 05:47

I got a mesmer, but she's more of an eyecandy than a tool for usage.

darkdreamr · Nov 22, 2007, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

I'm seeing this a lot, and not seeing anyone back it up. What about playing a Mesmer takes more skill than any other class in PvE? I've yet to get a solid answer.

A bunch of people seem to think that playing a mesmer isn't more complicated than other classes. Let me try to explain. I think the biggest difference between mesmer and any other class is how fast you switch targets. Now in a pure damage role you don't see this as much, but mesmers are rarely pure damage.

Let's say I'm playing a warrior. I go to the target and start hitting it. There's no reason for me to care what's going on around me, unless people start dying and I need to run away. Or maybe I step out of some aoe. As a nuker, I am more aware, but I don't really care what the mobs are doing, I just want to maximize my damage by casting spells on the right foes. As a monk, I might not ever click on an enemy at all. Good monks will know what hexes/conditions the mobs are using, but of course they're focused on the party health bars.

But the mesmer in a shutdown role has to always be tabbing around, looking at what skills mobs are using and how to counter them. If I leave that ele alone for 5 seconds he might get off a meteor shower. Tab, empathy on that one. Quick select tank and shatter hex. What's the ele doing now? Is it more dangerous than that hammer warrior? It gets even crazier when you face groups with great team builds. Throughout most of the game, that means two monks. But venture into say, Rragar's Menagerie HM to see some real PvE challenges. Then, it becomes: oh, that monk just used remove hex. I have 7 seconds before I have to worry about that again. Backfire the other monk, interrupt his hex removal, etc. Maybe once you're good enough you can tell when that Aegis goes up without checking all the monks and eles every few seconds. Then you can hit mirror of disenchantment even faster. And when the warrior and nuker pat each other on the back for executing a good spike, they never know that you are the reason their hexes stayed on and their attacks got through.

So. Even though this kind of play is not needed for most of the game, and certainly not needed when mobs are clumped up - and it doesn't matter what class they are, they're just MS fodder - this is how I think good shutdown mesmers play. And that requires a fair bit more thinking than just "tank the target" or "spike that one". In the difficult situations, the mesmer is the one who has thought 3 moves ahead and made sure neither monk can prevent the spike. Using not only skill and reflexes, but knowledge of all classes' skills and their recharge times, etc.

Is that a solid enough answer for you? (I'm sure it won't be)

But in response to what you're going to say: that there's no need to go through all this effort. Interrupting is just interrupting anyone can do it. I would argue that in any situation that's not nuking grouped up enemies, the mesmer can be a great asset. In GWEN, hard mode especially there are some nasty team builds. I would argue that in these situations mesmers are worth their weight in ectos. The reason mesmers are rare in PvE is not because they're less effective. Rather they gain effectiveness as you fight harder and harder foes.

But the thing is, the play styles that exist either do not need or do not include subtlety. Most of the times when the game gets hard enough that subtlety is actually *needed*, people switch to the EZmode skills. Namely: Obsidian Flesh, Meteor Shower, Blood is Power, Spiteful Spirit + clumped enemies, Ursan Blessing, TNTF and SY! to a lesser extent, did I miss any? These are builds that have nothing to do with the enemy you're facing. They crush anything into oblivion. They defend against everything. So of course they really don't need or want subtlety. they want more firepower to go faster. The result is a mesmer identical to an SS necro in an ursanway group. Pointless. That's why mesmers are rare, because they are constantly either unneeded or unwanted. So fellow mesmers, what to do for a real challenge when you're tired of FC nuking and dressing up as a bear? There's PvP, where mesmers shine, the rest of your team will coordinate with you (though not in AB or RA), and you'll get to use your skills to the fullest. And maybe if you have enough friends who play, you can try hard stuff like DoA or UW without the steamroll builds. You won't get rich, but it's fun.

Just.nl · Nov 22, 2007, 07:21 AM // 07:21

U say that there arent lots of mesmers coz Ranger,Warrior,Elementalist etc are maybe cooler to play...
I got 2 an mesmer of lvl 11 but its boring.. but i wont say their bad..if you got the right build is mesmer really rocking

each proffession got the same qualities... but the one can inflict more bleeding,dazed etc and the other more Hexes....

Avarre · Nov 22, 2007, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale

There is an alternative to your summary of 3. That of people who are very skilled in all aspects of PvE play, but choose to play their chosen profession because they enjoy it in full knowledge of it's pro's and cons and in some cases because of it.

You'll notice I said nothing of the sort in actual tier description, but only in my later view of it. I only gave the reason I continue to play the Mesmer class because I didn't intend to speak for other players. My own view is that a player would run the most effective thing they can. There are, however, players who prefer to run less powerful things for fun (something that happens in many MMOs). This isn't mutually exclusive, it just falls outside the definition because I wasn't trying to be definitive. You're welcome to add on your own reasoning or expand it, I'm not writing gospel but framework.

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdreamr

As a monk, I might not ever click on an enemy at all. Good monks will know what hexes/conditions the mobs are using, but of course they're focused on the party health bars.

This is where I stopped reading. Focusing on the Health bars is an extremely low-level way to play monk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

On a side note, why are you even bothering with this anyway Avarre? They obviously want to believe what they want, and have rejected your sound reasoning. Don't waste your time...

Maybe someone new will read everything and make their own choice.

darkdreamr · Nov 22, 2007, 07:41 AM // 07:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

This is where I stopped reading. Focusing on the Health bars is an extremely low-level way to play monk.

I was trying to make a point. Every class has to concentrate on different things, and especially monks I would guess sometimes think about the battle on a higher level, try to predict who is going to take damage and so forth. But shutdown mesmers are always playing at that level.

You completely ignored my point, and stopped reading the answer to the question you've been repeating over and over in this thread. Which means you didn't *really* want to hear an answer, you had it all figured out for yourself already. Congratulations to you if you got this far.

arcady · Nov 22, 2007, 07:41 AM // 07:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by yazhgar

The amount of direct damage mesmers can do in PvE is worse than other classes, but sure Echo, MoR and others are fun.

Not all success is a measure of damage output. There is also damage input.

City of Heroes players have long known that the reason a controller or defender are the powerful classes there is not because they do the most damage, but because they are most effective at preventing others from doing damage.

Mesmers in Guild Wars are similar - the success of any particular mesmer is not in its damage-per-second but its damage-mitigation-per-second. A mesmer is a debuffing class.

Rangers, Water Elementalists, and some kinds of Necromancers also debuff.

The measure of whether a mesmer is effective in PvE should be how they compare to the debuff capabilities of those, as well as whether or not debuffing is actually important in GW-PvE.

Its very easy to grasp the value of doing damage, and the value of recovering from damage. It is a little harder to get people to grasp the value of blocking damage (thus protection monks and earth-warding elementalists get under-rated by PvE players), and particularly hard to get people to grasp the value of preventing the creation of that damage in the first place (thus the confusion over just what a mesmer is for and what value it might have).

In my opinion, the Mesmer is the best debuffing option in Guild Wars, and debuffing, when done by someone who can do it well, is very potent in GW PvE, not just PvP.

But the only online gaming community I have encountered as yet that recognizes the value of debuffers is City of Heroes. Every other online game with them has a community that undervalues them. They're only so recognized in CoH because they make up 2 of the 5 classes - forcing so many players, if for no other reason that variety, to end up trying them.

gremlin · Nov 22, 2007, 07:46 AM // 07:46

Ever seen a boss monster looking really embarrassed, it was probably a mesmer and its worth playing one just to see that.

Most of the casters bosses have a couple of skills they use, why interupt when you can steal.
Arcane thievery to steal a random skill and if you want use arcane echo or echo to do it twice.
Now you can wastrels worry and wastrels demise him for a while.

If they survive just use the standard interrupts to deal damage and energy loss.

The mesmers are a very specialised breed and you do need to know where you are going and who you are meeting to be really good.

I do hope there will be some kind of mesmer in GW2 and not just so players can have great secondaries.

Avarre · Nov 22, 2007, 07:51 AM // 07:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdreamr

I was trying to make a point. Every class has to concentrate on different things, and especially monks I would guess sometimes think about the battle on a higher level, try to predict who is going to take damage and so forth. But shutdown mesmers are always playing at that level.

I think it would be better to say you don't understand fully how the other classes function at high level (you've admitted it regarding monks), while you do understand somewhat more about Mesmers. Since you consider them based on different levels of play, it would appear to you the Mesmer takes more skill in PvE.

I could go into why I don't think the Mesmer takes any more skill than another class in PvE but I've already outlined my reasoning in this thread, and probably quite a few others.

Quote:

Which means you didn't *really* want to hear an answer

I want to hear a good answer.

Omniclasm · Nov 22, 2007, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcady

Not all success is a measure of damage output. There is also damage input.

City of Heroes players have long known that the reason a controller or defender are the powerful classes there is not because they do the most damage, but because they are most effective at preventing others from doing damage.

Mesmers in Guild Wars are similar - the success of any particular mesmer is not in its damage-per-second but its damage-mitigation-per-second. A mesmer is a debuffing class.

Rangers, Water Elementalists, and some kinds of Necromancers also debuff.

The measure of whether a mesmer is effective in PvE should be how they compare to the debuff capabilities of those, as well as whether or not debuffing is actually important in GW-PvE.

Its very easy to grasp the value of doing damage, and the value of recovering from damage. It is a little harder to get people to grasp the value of blocking damage (thus protection monks and earth-warding elementalists get under-rated by PvE players), and particularly hard to get people to grasp the value of preventing the creation of that damage in the first place (thus the confusion over just what a mesmer is for and what value it might have).

In my opinion, the Mesmer is the best debuffing option in Guild Wars, and debuffing, when done by someone who can do it well, is very potent in GW PvE, not just PvP.

But the only online gaming community I have encountered as yet that recognizes the value of debuffers is City of Heroes. Every other online game with them has a community that undervalues them. They're only so recognized in CoH because they make up 2 of the 5 classes - forcing so many players, if for no other reason that variety, to end up trying them.

Your logic is kind of flawed here m8. People are not saying debuffing, support, or damage prevention are bad. I would say that almost everyone that understands the game understands that preventing damage is very important.

Most experienced people know that a Curse Necro is a great character, due to their ability to greatly debuff melee, and do loads of damage at the same time.

Most experienced people know that Rangers are very useful, with their interrupts, application of dazed, and they still do somewhat decent damage.

Most experienced players know that protection is better than healing in almost every scenario. If you prevent damage, you don't need healing.

However, most experienced players also realize that Mesmers just cannot contribute as much as the above examples. They are sort of debuff like you said, but they are not as good at it as other professions. On average, a curse necromancer with only Enfeebling Blood will prevent more damage than the best Mesmer-only skill bar. The only way a Mesmer can really debuff anything in PvE is with interrupts. Their E-Drain skills do not work, monsters have infinite energy. Their E-Denial skills don't work because monsters are dead before energy could become a problem, oh, and they have infinite energy. That pretty much shoots a Mesmers debuffing in the ass. The only thing left is devoting a whole skill bar to interrupts, so that they MIGHT be able to out interrupt a Ranger. If they do succeed at this, they are still contributing way less damage than a Ranger.

So basically....

Mesmers E-Drain debuff is invalid
Mesmers E-Denial debuff is invalid
Mesmers interrupting is somewhat valid, but then just become a one dimensional character.

Not to mention that all Mesmer debuffs are single-target only, unlike the Curses necro AoE melee shutdown.

Which means that a Mesmer is a mediocre debuffer at best, and a mediocre damage dealer at best, and neither of these are compatible.
If you try to be a damage dealer, you have no debuffs, and still fail at damage.
If you try to be a debuffer, you have little to no damage, and still fail at debuffing.

darkdreamr · Nov 22, 2007, 08:04 AM // 08:04

Arcady, I like that way of looking at it. What mesmers are good at is reducing the offensive and defensive effectiveness of the enemy team. It's a broad goal, and to do the best job of it requires knowledge, thought, and effort. Then afterwards, you can't be evaluated because a lot of what you do doesn't pop up on the screen with a number next to it.

Omniclasm, necros may be better at multiple melee shutdown, but mesmers are better at multiple caster shutdown. This affects enemy defenses more than weakening their warriors does. But like I said it's rarely needed until the hard areas. I would also argue that *smart* interrupting (of a team, not a single mob) is anything but "fail."

Avarre, I've never played a monk, but I've finished campaigns with nukers, tanks, and a couple hybrid classes. And I spent time with each one of them. I doubt that my argument is based on having more experience with a mesmer, because I've done the hard areas with tanks, necros, and elementalists too, and I found that their bars didn't require as much thought or decision making to use. That's why I went back to mesmer. I could just as easily argue that maybe you haven't played a mesmer the way I do, so you don't understand me. But what's the point of arguing that? Like your sig says, no man's knowledge can go beyond his experience. And that may be the best answer you ever get.

LightningHell · Nov 22, 2007, 08:06 AM // 08:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdreamr

Let's say I'm playing a warrior. I go to the target and start hitting it. There's no reason for me to care what's going on around me, unless people start dying and I need to run away.

No offense, but learn to play Warrior.

Quote:

Or maybe I step out of some aoe. As a nuker, I am more aware, but I don't really care what the mobs are doing, I just want to maximize my damage by casting spells on the right foes.

And this is different from a generic PvE Mesmer because...?

Quote:

As a monk, I might not ever click on an enemy at all. Good monks will know what hexes/conditions the mobs are using, but of course they're focused on the party health bars.

As a person who primarily uses a monk, I'd say I probably need way more awareness of the situation than the midline Mesmer in PvE, due to the need to anticipate and react to different sources.

Looking at the health bars is full of fail.

And in PvP, I daresay the most skill-requiring professions (or positions) would be the Warrior (or the frontline), and the Monk (or the backline).

upier · Nov 22, 2007, 08:25 AM // 08:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~

Fixed that for you. And I agree 100%.

Aye. Thanks for that.
I missed it while reading it through.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Res Ipsi

All classes have shortcomings. To claim mesmers in general are useless in PvE totally flies in the face of the many mesmers sporting LV and LG titles (to name two). Surely they didn't all stand in the back polishing their nails?

That thing we stated many times though is NOT that mesmers are useless - they just aren't as good as the best thing.
If we get back to the Tiers thingy - Tier 1 players will say mesmers are useless.
Tier 3 players will say - that they aren't good enough.
The difference between the two show while playing the game.
Tier 1 players will refuse to party with a mesmer.
Tier 3 players will know that most of the PvE is easy enough so that the mesmers shortcomings actually don't matter. IF the point is to have fun.
BUT IF the point is to reach the top of the PvE game (also) - which means playing with the best options - then this will be an issue.

darkdreamr · Nov 22, 2007, 08:37 AM // 08:37

Haha, I guess it's not clear that I was trying to make a point. Obviously warrior skill bars consist of more than C and space bar. I'm talking about the decision making processes that go on. It's the situational awareness that I'm going for.

Yes good warriors have it and need it. But their job doesn't require switching targets often, or indirect things like hexing one enemy to affect another. The nuker is different too because it's also a very direct style of play. Your skills have immediate effects, but your job is to do the damage, and inflict the conditions. Playing a nuker there was a lot of things I didn't need to know about what the enemies were doing. You know what I mean? My point is that for a lot of other classes that I have played extensively (which doesn't include monk), the situational awareness just doesn't come into play as much. Whereas with a mesmer, it makes all the difference between being very effective or not at all.

PvP is totally different, and a lot of the roles change. I would actually agree that in a lot of cases, all a mesmer needs to do is find the monk and hex away, which is pretty straightforward. But it depends on the build. Warriors are (in my mind) much more exciting to play in GvG because of the importance of that role. No doubt. Caffeine wearing off, time for sleep.

Omniclasm · Nov 22, 2007, 08:39 AM // 08:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdreamr

Omniclasm, necros may be better at multiple melee shutdown, but mesmers are better at multiple caster shutdown. This affects enemy defenses more than weakening their warriors does. But like I said it's rarely needed until the hard areas. I would also argue that *smart* interrupting (of a team, not a single mob) is anything but "fail."

Except most of the time, Rangers are actually better at this, while also doing damage, and have a whole lot more survivability than a Mesmer. Mesmer interrupts are sort of disadvantaged in PvE, things like Power Drain, which has a really really strong effect, so it has a long recharge. However, in PvE, this effect is non-existent. Mesmers do in fact have more interruption skills, but half of them can only interrupt certain types of skills, and all of them have longer recharges than a Rangers.

Interrupt-wise, there is very little reason to take a Mesmer instead of a Ranger.

Not saying that a Mesmer isn't a valid option. I mean a level 3 naked Warrior is a valid option. If you take a Mesmer instead of a Ranger, you can still be a winner. You might not be as effective as a Ranger, but you can still win.

And no, I am not saying that Mesmers suck. I love playing a Mesmer in PvP, but when it comes to PvE, they are not fantastic.

the_jos · Nov 22, 2007, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Quote:

The reason mesmers are rare in PvE is not because they're less effective. Rather they gain effectiveness as you fight harder and harder foes.

Harder foes in Guild Wars seems to be something like:
- Higher health
- More armor
- More damage
- Faster attacking/casting
- Hexes / Conditions have shorter duration
Depending on the campaign and mode.

And foes work according to specific 'simple' AI rules.
And always seem to come in groups.

The mesmer does benefit on those areas:
- Higher armor (damage is armor ignoring)
- Faster attacking/casting (means some hexes trigger more)
- Shorter duration of hexes and conditions (but on a limited number of skills)
- More damage (slower casting foes, interrupt, loss of energy/adrenaline, blind)

However, most are targeted against single enemies, with exception of a few skills.

Now we put in a necro:
- Higher health (several skills in the blood line benefit from it)
- More armor (damage is armor ignoring)
- More damage (Weakness, AoE % miss spells)
- Faster attacking/casting (SS does benefit a lot from this)

And Necro's have a lot more AoE damage, which really help since foes always tend to bunch together.

Where the mesmer could be most valuable is in situations where one has to fight balanced groups with a limited number of foes with a limited number of party members.
Situations where AoE means less and the mesmer can focus on one enemy while the rest of the team deals with the other foes.

That's Ascalon on Hard Mode and only specific parts.
Where a ranger with daze would have been about as effective as a mesmer.

I've played my mesmer long enough to know the limitations.
Compare the profession to the screwdrivers a watchmaker uses.
They are extremely usefull, but in a very limited number of situations.
For normal usage you need the average large screwdrivers to get the job done.

glountz · Nov 22, 2007, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcady

Not all success is a measure of damage output. There is also damage input.

City of Heroes players have long known that the reason a controller or defender are the powerful classes there is not because they do the most damage, but because they are most effective at preventing others from doing damage.

Mesmers in Guild Wars are similar - the success of any particular mesmer is not in its damage-per-second but its damage-mitigation-per-second. A mesmer is a debuffing class.

Rangers, Water Elementalists, and some kinds of Necromancers also debuff.

The measure of whether a mesmer is effective in PvE should be how they compare to the debuff capabilities of those, as well as whether or not debuffing is actually important in GW-PvE.

Its very easy to grasp the value of doing damage, and the value of recovering from damage. It is a little harder to get people to grasp the value of blocking damage (thus protection monks and earth-warding elementalists get under-rated by PvE players), and particularly hard to get people to grasp the value of preventing the creation of that damage in the first place (thus the confusion over just what a mesmer is for and what value it might have).

In my opinion, the Mesmer is the best debuffing option in Guild Wars, and debuffing, when done by someone who can do it well, is very potent in GW PvE, not just PvP.

But the only online gaming community I have encountered as yet that recognizes the value of debuffers is City of Heroes. Every other online game with them has a community that undervalues them. They're only so recognized in CoH because they make up 2 of the 5 classes - forcing so many players, if for no other reason that variety, to end up trying them.

Okay. I agree with your theory about damage input, damage ouput, and debuffing.

I will take an example of a common build that does this.

WARRIOR/PARANGON
-ENduring HArmony (So FGJ last 30 secs).
-For Great Justice! (+100% adre)
-Flail (+33% IAS)
-Dragon slash (+38 damage, DPS of 60, renew itself as well as any AD skill under FGJ)
-Save yourselves! (+100 armor to your party, constant under Dragon slash spam)
-Brawling Headbutt (KD for 3 secs, constant KD lock when paired with Dragon slash)
-There's Nothing to Fear! (30% damage reduction to your party, 60 Health healed every 20 secs)
-Whatever you want.

Now, find me a mesmer bar that does more damage, or protect more, or disrupt more. I'm waiting patiently.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drkdreamer

Yes good warriors have it and need it. But their job doesn't require switching targets often, or indirect things like hexing one enemy to affect another. The nuker is different too because it's also a very direct style of play. Your skills have immediate effects, but your job is to do the damage, and inflict the conditions. Playing a nuker there was a lot of things I didn't need to know about what the enemies were doing. You know what I mean? My point is that for a lot of other classes that I have played extensively (which doesn't include monk), the situational awareness just doesn't come into play as much. Whereas with a mesmer, it makes all the difference between being very effective or not at all.

You really don't know how to play a warrior. Warrior's "job" is to be the best contribution it can to a party. Their job is damage and conditions? How restricting you are.

I will add a 4th tier to Avarre's Scale

Tier 4: You have played extensively a mesmer on 3 campaigns, but you have also played as well a necro, a monk, a warrior, an ele, a sin, a dervish, a rit, a ranger, and a para (Yes, you have to. This is a perfect example of an unwanted but overpowered PVE character, on the contrary the mesmer is an unwanted but underpowered PVE character). Thus, you are able to fully appreciate the strenghts and weaknesses of each prof in PVE.